The Good
After leaving the church, I felt several things. I felt free. I felt suddenly flush with cash. I suddenly had lots of free time, time to actually see my kids. I felt more in line with my true self and my deepest beliefs. And I felt very surprised to find myself somewhere that I never, ever planned or expected.
The Bad
What replacement exists for churches (or religion) in our society? Churches bring people together like a family, without being family. I have still been looking for any kind of social equivalent to a church, without success. That place should meet regularly, build long-term relationships, direct people towards doing good for society, and to meet and interact with other types of people than they normally would. The closest thing I can come up with is the workplace. Maybe I should go get to know my neighbors?
The Ugly
The trauma of leaving the church has put a stress on my marriage and family that will take time to heal.
I've lost some long-term friendships.
I could have bought a house for cash with all of the money I sunk into the church, money which is now just gone, wasted forever financing a group that tried to destroy my family.
I've wasted 15 years, prime years, of my life.
So have you found any replacement(?)? Thats what im afraid of - losing friendship...
ReplyDeleteBy the way Im current member thinking of leaving the church...
DeleteThanks for posting. A replacement? That was big on my list for a while but I have not started attending any other church. However, as soon as I left the church, I suddenly had time available to spend with my family, which is a much better replacement. Also, as time goes on, I don't miss being in the church even one tiny bit. I'd say I replaced the fantasy life of the church with "real life" in reality, which for me, is far more rewarding. PS When you leave, you will find out who is really your friend and who is not. Only the real friends matter.
DeleteHi, I know this is an older post so I don´t know whether this is still relevant, but there are some attitude shifts I have found useful since abandoning Kip´s movement. I can best sum this up by saying that I went through a process of getting Kip out of my head, i.e. I stopped reading the bible with the filter of Kip´s gospel and started to read it in order to understand what it actually teaches. My tack has been to start with a reliable commentary on each book of the bible, and work my way through it, starting with Genesis. This has been incredibly liberating, once you get rid of the approach used in the ICC, namely bending the scriptures to support Kip´s opinions, you are free to begin to understand God through his word. God can then use that process to guide you.
DeleteI finally had a chance to read God's Word for myself. I believe that is the best replacement to start with for everyone.
DeleteYEah You sound like a Lost and Confused, BItter person :( Kip McKean's Church (International CHristian Church) is the One True Church and your goin to Suffer Eternaty in Hell for Turning Your Back on GOD, JEsus, and the OTC /SODM! :( :'( :'(( I hope U can REPENT an Not lead more People ASTRAY with ur LIES!! :( >:(
ReplyDeleteUm, okay.
DeleteThe fact that you log in as "Kip McKean" instead of yourself, along with the nature of your comment, should discredit your statement. Seems like you are doing it under Kip's name to misrepresent and discredit him.
DeleteYou are wrong. I know Jesus and I know the Bible. Stop preaching falsely. You will burn in hell for being a false phrophet. Says so in the Bible. The Bible also says no one can separate a person from Jesus when they have truly asked Him to come into their life.
DeleteFor 1 you need to get a New King James Bible, the NIV is a bad translation, I'll show you: Just 1 reason why I now trust the King James Bible or New KJB over the NIV.
ReplyDelete1)Hosea 11:12
New International Version (NIV)
Israel’s Sin
...And Judah is unruly against God,
even against the faithful Holy One.
VS
Hosea 11:12
King James Version (KJV)... but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.
Hosea 11:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
'God’s Charge Against Ephraim'
...But Judah still walks with God,
Even with the Holy One who is faithful.
I checked the Hebrew the KJV is correct and the NIV is off.
Mario, I think I remember you. I'm Rene Cruz from Hayward. My husband killed himself years back. Are you back from Central America?
DeleteRene I am so sorry for your loss. I hope it is not due to the stupid church of Kip
DeleteAn Error in the discipleship study:
ReplyDeleteThe Word "CHRISTIAN"
Does not mean little Christ.
In the Greek 'Christian' is 'Khris-tee-an-os' and it means "follower of Christ".
Mark 9:1
ReplyDeleteNew King James Version (NKJV)
9 And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”
What Jesus said in context:
Matthew 16:28
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the "Son of Man coming" in His kingdom.”
This could only mean:
1)Matthew 17
New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Transfigured on the Mount
17 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
AND
2)Revelation 1:1
New King James Version (NKJV)
Introduction and Benediction
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
Revelation 19:11-16
New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ on a White Horse
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[a] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[b] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[c] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
Im sure you have a point but it is not clear at all what you are trying to show.
DeleteThe point is much of the erroneous teachings from the ICOC came out a stupid ignorant understanding of the scriptures, and frankly, the NIV didn't help due to its way of wording certain passages. The passages happen to be ones the ICOC used abusively.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHere's more:
ReplyDeleteGenesis 27:39
New King James Version (NKJV)
39 Then Isaac his father answered and said to him:
"“Behold, your dwelling shall be of the fatness of the earth,
And of the dew of heaven from above.""
vs
Genesis 27:39
New International Version (NIV)
39 His father Isaac answered him,
"“Your dwelling will be
away from the earth’s richness,
away from the dew of heaven above.""
I checked the Hebrew the NKJ is right and the NIV is wrong.
And the ICC uses the NIV.
ReplyDeleteAn observation of Isaiah 2:1-4
ReplyDeleteNew International Version (NIV)
The Mountain of the Lord
2 This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3 Many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
According to the ICOC and others this was fulfilled in Acts 2. But that can't be and I'll explain: Isaiah was contemporary of Micah and most scholars believe that Micah version was 1st because it is longer and Isaiah copied from his: Micah 4
New International Version (NIV)
The Mountain of the Lord
4 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and peoples will stream to it.
2 Many nations will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3 He will judge between many peoples
and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
4 Everyone will sit under their own vine
and under their own fig tree,
and no one will make them afraid,
for the Lord Almighty has spoken.
5 All the nations may walk
in the name of their gods,
but we will walk in the name of the Lord
our God for ever and ever.
Micah and Isaiah are referring to the 2nd coming of Christ and not the Church in Acts 2, because it says: He will judge between many peoples
and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
This has not happened yet, Iran is going Nuclear, the U.S. is still in a war against Terror, not to mention WW1, WW2, The Crusades, the Islamic Wars, the Napoleonic Wars, etc, etc, etc.
The Word Nation in the Hebrew is (go'ee) meaning a foreign nation/gentile.
ReplyDeleteCountries(currently training for war) without mandatory military service
1 Albania
2 Argentina
3 Australia
4 Barbados
5 Belgium
6 Belize
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina
8 Bulgaria
9 Canada
10 China (PRC)
11 Costa Rica
12 Croatia
13 Czech Republic
14 France
15 Germany
16 Hungary
17 India
18 Iraq
19 Ireland
20 Italy
21 Jamaica
22 Japan
23 Latvia
24 Lebanon
25 Luxembourg
26 Republic of Macedonia
27 Mauritius
28 Montenegro
29 Morocco
30 Netherlands
31 New Zealand
32 Pakistan
33 Panama
34 Peru
35 Poland
36 Portugal
37 Romania
38 Serbia
39 Slovakia
40 Slovenia
41 South Africa
42 Spain
43 Sri Lanka
44 Sweden
45 Tanzania
46 United Kingdom
47 United States
Countries with mandatory military service
1 Armenia
2 Austria
3 Belarus
4 Bermuda
5 Brazil
6 Myanmar(Burma)
7 Cyprus
8 Denmark
9 Egypt
10 Finland
11 Greece
11.1 Conscientious objection to military service (Greece)
12 Iran
13 Israel
14 North Korea
15 South Korea
15.1 Compensation
16 Mexico
17 Norway
18 Russia
19 Singapore
20 Switzerland
21 Taiwan (ROC)
22 Thailand
23 Turkey
24 Ukraine
This prophecy of Isaiah will be fulfilled in Christ 2nd coming to establish his millennium kingdom on earth: Revelation 20
New International Version (NIV)
The Thousand Years
20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
This is confirmed by ancient Rabbi's like Rabbi Elijah(not the prophet) 200 B.C. And Barnabas in his Epistle says that Christ will return to earth to rein for a 1000 years.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIsaiah 2:4 He will judge between the nations
ReplyDeleteand will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
If this was fulfilled when the Church was started, then why so many wars for the last 2000 years?
Jesus said the opposite would happen before his 2nd coming:
Matthew 24
New King James Version (NKJV)
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus also said:
Matthew 24:22
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iOxcIkOPH0
ReplyDeleteYou might wanna watch this.
Mario! Thanks for posting. Sounds like you have also escaped the influence of Kip and the ICC
DeleteThe Word "against" that appears in Hosea 11:12
ReplyDeleteNew International Version (NIV)
Israel’s Sin
12 Ephraim has surrounded me with lies,
Israel with deceit.
""And Judah is unruly ''against'' God,
even against the faithful Holy One."" ///That also appears in Genesis 16:12(NIV)
He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be "against" everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” -and in the (KJB) Genesis 16:12
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be "against" every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. /Genesis 16:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be "against" every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” /// In the Hebrew against is 'ale,el' and it does not appear in the Hebrew text in Hosea 11:12.
"How the New Testament Cannon was formed"
ReplyDeleteThe official New Testament with the 27 books we have was formed in 367 A.D. and not 150 A.D.(As we were told in the ICC/ICOC/BACC, plus others.
In the Year 150 A.D. Marcion of Sinope put together the 1st version of the New Testament and it only included the Gospel of Luke and the Epistles of Paul and he rejected the Old Testament all together.
Marcion also shared some Gnostic views and so he was rejected by the early church.
But the Church picked up on this idea of a New Testament so what they had was a thing called Apostles and the Gospels and they accepted the Old Testament.
But each Church had a different set of Books when it came to the New testament, some had the: 'The Shepherd of Hermas', others had 'The Epistle of Barnabas' some did not feel good to have 'Hebrews', etc, etc.
(In 185 A.D. Saint Irenaeus put together a cannon for the New Testament but it only contained 22 books).
This went on until 290 A.D. when the bishops started having conferences to fix this matter, and it was a long process until 367 A.D.
Hosea 11:12
ReplyDeleteNew King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Charge Against Ephraim
12 “Ephraim has encircled Me with lies,
And the house of Israel with deceit;
""But Judah still walks with God,
Even with the Holy One who is faithful.""
vs
Hosea 11:12
New International Version (NIV)
Israel’s Sin
12 Ephraim has surrounded me with lies,
Israel with deceit.
""And Judah is unruly against God,
even against the faithful Holy One."" /// Like I said I checked the Hebrew, Hosea 11:12
King James Version (KJV)... but Judah yet ruleth(in Hebrew is 'rud) with(in Hebrew is 'im') God, and is faithful(in Hebrew is 'aman') with the saints(in Hebrew is 'kaw-dosh'). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And Jesus said: Matthew 5:18
New King James Version (NKJV)
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. /////// But the fact that the ICC leaders are blind to this fact, it's just as Jesus said: Matthew 15:14
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
The ICC is ignorant on church History:
ReplyDelete1)Eusebius: (200 A.D. 1 of Origen students is martyred because of persecution): Among the women, Herais, still under instruction for baptism(water), received instead "the baptism of fire(burned alive)" as Origen himself puts it, and so ended her life.
2)Acts 12:1-2.
1 It was about this time that King Herod arrested some who belonged to the church, intending to persecute them. 2 He had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword.
History teaches James was beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watch in amazement as James defended his faith at his trial. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the Judge.
As one historian puts it "So they were both taken away together, and on the way he asked James to forgive him. James looked at him for a moment and replied "peace be with you" and kissed him. So both were beheaded at the same time.
This was considered a Baptism of Blood as you can see the Roman guard was not water baptized and considered save by the Apostles and the 1st century Church.
The earliest Manuscript on Baptism(as early as 60 A.D.) AND QUOTED AS SCRIPTURE BY Some in EARLY CHURCH: The Didache
ReplyDeleteVII. But concerning baptism, thus baptize ye: having first recited all these precepts, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in running water; but if thou hast not running water, baptize in some other water, and if thou canst not baptize in cold, in warm water; but if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
I grew up in the mainstream Churches of Christ and I think it was their legalism that spawned the ICC. There was no way I could be saved believing in that false gospel. I was taught I had to help save myself (not explicitly in those words, but it was certainly taught, nevertheless). In 1 Cor. 15, it says "Christ died for our sins" - that means ALL of our sins - past, present, and future. Future?? Yes! After all, how many of our sins were in the future when he died? All of them! Praise God! :) The mainstream COC has a false gospel, as does the ICC from which it sprang. We are saved by grace alone through faith, completely apart from works. This makes all the difference in every way. The believers with whom I fellowship are SO full of grace toward others because they know God's grace! "'Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.'" (John 5:24) "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work." (Romans 11:6) "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus..." (Romans 3:21-24) "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.'" (Romans 4:4-8) "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." (Romans 6:14) I was always taught in the COC that we are under a "new" law. No! We are no longer under ANY law - period. "Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." (Galatians 3:21-22) May God bless you and bring you comfort by His unfathomable grace! :)
ReplyDeleteI am currently a member of the ICOC and really considering finding somewhere else to worship.
ReplyDeleteI'AM A MEMBER OF THE PHOENIX ICC AND MY NAME IS BILL THOMPSON, EITHER YOU ARE PART OF THE SOLUTION ARE YOU THE PROBLEM. WHERE THERE NO VISION THE PEOPLE WILL PERISH PROV. 29:18, ENTER THROUGH THE NARROW GATE MATTHEW 7:13-14 WE ARE ALL SAVE BY FAITH BUT IN THE END YOU HAVE TO BE FAITHFUL TO GOD IN THE END BUT WHAT THAT LOOK LIKE THAT'S GOD DECISION BUT YOU HAVE TO PUT ON THE ARMOR OF GOD EPHESIANS 6:10-21 AND THE BIBLE SHOULD DEFINE US AND NOT THE WORLD. SO WE NEED TO WATCH OUR LIFE AND OUR DOCTRINE CLOSELY 1 TIMOTHY 4:16 FOR WE CAN SAVE OURSELF AND OUR HEARERS... WHEN BILL GATES WAS RUNNING MICROSOFT, DID THEY ALL HAVE HIS VISION(HIS COMPANY IN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES) OR THEY WAS AUTONOMY FOR EACH OTHER? LOOK I LOVE MY CHURCH IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING BETTER THAN MY CHURCH PLEASE EMAIL ME BRTEXPRESSLLDLS@GMAIL.COM OR CALL ME 602-697-1716 AND I WILL BE THERE BUT PLEASE DON'T WRITE ME OR CALL ME AND BASH MY FAMILY, PLEASE DON'T DO THAT, WRITE ME OR CALL ME TO GIVE ME A BETTER CHURCH WHO ARE EVANGELIZING THE WORLD(GOOD NEWS EMAIL) MY PHONE IS BROKEN I WILL BE FULLY OPERATIONAL IN A COUPLE DAYS
ReplyDeleteI've led an interesting life...
ReplyDeleteI grew up Mormon, left that - spent time in the world, and then was thinking about becoming an orthodox Jew as my family lineage led me to that.
Then while reading the first five books of the "Bible" I felt strongly convicted by the Spirit of YHWH to repent, but because of the lies I inherited from my parents (Jer 16:16-20) I believed the only answer was the human sacrifice of Jesus.
So for a few years, I followed Protestant Christianity, and started reading the NT. What I found is that the NT by and large doesn't agree with the Torah and the Prophets.
Jesus is the bronze serpent, that leads men astray. Paul is a false prophet.
YHWH alone is God and Savior, and I don't want followers - I don't want a religion.
I want people to find the one true God and have relationship with him, turn from their sin.